John “JC” Dirks

STREAM ANNOUNCMENT: @TheOtherPaul2 will me joining be to discuss the real authority of councils specifically Nicaea. Did Nicaea think it was infallible? Monday 6/15 at 8:30pm (CST) | Tuesday 6/16 at 12:30pm (AEST)

@Dauntless_Saint Decades is not short. But ok. Why was it a robber council?

@johncdirks That was a robber council that was condemned shortly after its decisions. It was never considered ecumenical. There's an entire story to that.

EOs do you think the fathers at Nicaea knew that they were an infallible council? If Nicaea did not even view itself as an infallible council why would I view it as such?

@orthobrohammer @grok You’re welcome to refute it. Or just change the argument so that it doesn’t include this error and we can have a fruitful discussion.

@johncdirks @grok No, you made an assertion that a sophisticated autocomplete validated for you. You're not a serious person.

EOs come join up and talk with Paul and I about Nicaea! Monday night.

@sinnerandrew @thaddeusthought Which comes first for you the rational or the faith?

@johncdirks @thaddeusthought Both actually - but don't worry about me. I'm serious, and outside of the "debate" or whatever you guys are playing, it's a friendly warning. You are channeling Bertrand Russell here, and that's a bad place to be. The protestant-to-atheism pipeline is wide enough these days.

@Dauntless_Saint Why is Hieria not the pillar and ground of truth?

@johncdirks pillar and ground of truth.

@Verita_dirigit1 @IFFFMEISTER Well if anathemas were removed then something must have been incorrect in Nicaea right? I can see how adding is acceptable because they are just clarifying. But to remove is another matter.

@johncdirks @IFFFMEISTER That dodges the question, did the councils contradict each other?

@orthobrohammer @grok I made the argument in my prompt. I’m just letting you see Grok so we have a 3rd party that is unbiased.

@johncdirks @grok You can't even make your own arguments. Sad.

No I’m going to ask how you know it was infallible. That’s the point. Saying that it’s impossible for it to be otherwise does not follow because Hieria was wrong and you know it was wrong. So not all councils are infallible. What criteria do you apply to Nicaea that identify it as right and Hieria as wrong?

@johncdirks So it's impossible for them to err, especially when guided by the Holy Spirit, in such dogmatic declarations. Now let me guess: You're going to shift the goal posts and say they weren't infallible about *everything*, even though that was no part of your original question.

@orthobrohammer @grok can you demonstrate how premise 2 in this argument confuses epistemological possibility and metaphysical possibility?

@johncdirks So you can't understand arguments unless they're spelled out? 1. Possibly, the councils anathematized by mistake. (You) 2. (1) if and only if possibly, that which is anathematized is true. 3. The consequent of (2) is false. 4. So, not possibly, they anathematized by mistake.

@Orthodox_Alfred @roginkim So how does council reception work?

@johncdirks @roginkim Someone doesn’t know how council reception works. You’re implying that you don’t believe Christ when He said that He will be with the Church always, and that the Holy Spirit will lead the Church into all truth.

@orthobrohammer Ok, that’s not an argument though. I don’t believe they saw themselves as infallible. So why do you believe they were?

@johncdirks You admitted they could anathematize by mistake. So it was possible thay they were wrong about Arians, modalists, Pneumatomachians, subordinationists, and on and on. To believe those things are possibly true (and so anathematized by mistake) is a huge cope.

@orthobrohammer Im demonstrating what I see as the inconsistency in the EO view through questions. You chose to comment and defend it.

@johncdirks Your problem is that you ask questions like you want an answer, but you don't actually care what anybody says. You're engagement farming. And this thread is evidence. Good luck getting your bag.

@CloserToSource They prayed that they would make the right decisions, showing that they did not view themselves as infallible. Also the creed was later revised (things were added and removed) at Constantinople If it was revised then was it deemed at that time to be infallible?

@johncdirks It is. Just read the Canons of Nicaea to see the phronema of the Church at the time. newadvent.org/fathers/3801.h…

@roginkim The east has no objective way to know if something is infallible. You said that you maintain that the Spirit guides the entire church? Then how do you explain Hieria?

@johncdirks If by "consistent" you mean made up, sure. The East's position is the same as the pre-schism Church so not sure what the inconsistency is.

@orthobrohammer Right thats not a problem for me. This is an internal critique. Im asking you.

@johncdirks And there it is. Thanks for playing along.

@Dauntless_Saint Thats fine, but how do you from the inside know that you are not currently in error?

@johncdirks The assumption behind the question is that the Church needs an external “infallibility meter” to validate councils. Orthodoxy doesn’t operate that way. The Church is not judged from outside; she recognizes truth from within, the Body of Christ guided by the Holy Spirit (John 16).

@OrthodoxHistory @bhanna4d Exactly.

@bhanna4d @johncdirks 2 Peter 3:15-16 refers to St Paul’s epistles as Scripture.

@CloserToSource But that’s not how Nicaea saw it nor the people in that time.

@johncdirks Jesus gave us apostles and their successors to bind and loose. That's how the church operates. That's what He left us when He ascended.

@orthobrohammer Of course they could have.

@johncdirks Answer the question. Could they have anathematized by mistake? Yes or no.

@Dauntless_Saint Then how can you be certain that the councils are infallible? If there is not metric to judge them with? The church could be in error right now and a future ecumenical council might anathamarize it.

@Dauntless_Saint Ok then what amount of time is required? If it’s not a percentage reception. Or if it’s a combo of the two then what is the percentage required over what amount of time?