@ContraHeresy Very sly, yes indeed, my doctrine, your doctrine, not the same thing as official church doctrine. We have an entire revealed doctrine on doctrine even.
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Kenneth Johnson
92 posts
It’s much more concerning to think you can understand the intentions of God; that you can plan better than God; that you can understand omnipotence and timelessness better than God; that you can use your rational mind to be a better god than God.
The same LDS take as always: if I were what I believe God to be, I would have done it better than He did. You ultimately make God in your own image.
In a worldview that assumes God is all powerful and all knowing, you can also assume God did everything as he intended, with full knowledge of what he was doing; and he chose to do His will, not Jacob Hansen’s.
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Question for non LDS folks.
Why would God put a poison tree in the middle of his perfect garden knowing that Adam and Eve would partake?
The only way out of this is to say God intended it for some higher purpose.
Which implies his initial creation was not perfect but could be improved upon.
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@xc_iles How long did it take Christians to canonize Paul?… Give it time. This is a far worse trap than you think it is, especially considering the rate of revelation in the last 200 years from the last 4000 years
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“The canon is not closed”.
“God still speaks through his prophet”.
Just not in the last century? 🤔
Why isn’t “continuous revelation”, well, “continuous”?
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Joseph Smith: 135 revelations in 14 years.
1845-2026: 3 revelations, including OD-1 and OD-2.
1918-2026: 0 revelations.
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@stackerco @ThoughtfulSaint Amazing how often you fake goalposts!
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And yet somehow prophets produce better sociological outcomes than doctors of sociology.
Fruits matter.
stacker@stackerco
A doctor: “I went to med school.” A prophet: “I speak for God.” This not about whether fallible people who are trained in medicine can know more than me. This is about why someone should still be treated as speaking for God after being wrong in God’s name.
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@ThoughtfulSaint @GoWithJordan_ I didn’t mean to claim it was
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@ThoughtfulSaint @GoWithJordan_ Also Joseph- “I want the liberty of believing as I please. It feels so good not to be trammeled. It doesn’t prove that a man is not a good man because he errs in doctrine.” It’s clear he was speaking for himself and the saints.
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"If Jesus Christ was the Son of God and John discovered that God the Father of Jesus Christ had a Father you may suppose that He had a Father also. Where was there ever a son without a father? And where was there ever a father without first being a son?" - J Smith, grove sermon.
Thoughtful-Faith@ThoughtfulSaint
Better Challenge: ask your scriptures if God the father had a father.
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Even just using your definition of “god breathed”, we still get an inspired, inerrant view of scripture. If all scripture is “life-giving”, and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness, then all of scripture must be true.
Falsehoods, mistakes, and misunderstandings do not give life, they are not useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting, or training in righteousness.
Scripture is life-giving, and it is God who made it that way as He is the source of all life. God does not err
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No where does the Bible ever mention “the Bible”
No where in the Bible does it claim inerrancy.
These are later theological presuppositions that are not derived from the text.
And “god breathed” in the first century meant life giving when you see how it is used in other 1st century texts.
Alex Dubois 🌳🪓@ThatGoldenChain
This is the kind of thing you say if you’ve not meaningfully interacted with how Christ interacts with Scripture in the gospels. Any system outside of Sola Scriptura is really just Sola Ecclesia. Pure allegiance to fallible men claiming authority over an infallible Word.
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@stackerco @grok Grok misses that the OP is not only alleging inconsistency; it is also implicitly equating authority with practical inerrancy, and then using that equation to force a false dilemma.
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I can accept that prophets are fallible.
What I can’t accept is the selective way fallibility gets used only after the fact to excuse serious error, false doctrine, changing commandments and contradictions …
…WHILE prophetic authority is still demanded in the present.
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@pseino @Bar_tolmi Haha, no it took 1000 years to find Troy with better conditions, smaller search area, and more archeology.
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The LDS church has to keep a vague stance on the location of the events of the Book of Mormon because it leaves the door open that something, ANTHING, might be found to support it.
Even though the existence of Troy from the myth of Homer's Odyssey was debated and doubted as a real city, it's location was later confirmed in 1870 and excavated.
There is more evidence for the epic poem of Homer, than there is archeological evidence and ancient manuscripts in the Americas for Joseph Smith's Book of Mormon.
Let that sink in.
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@stackerco @bdots2020 Staker will hereby set the rules for prophets!
Doctor getting something wrong and guilty of malpractice are not same thing. Same with prophets. Wait, sorry, you make the rules.
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@bdots2020 Know what else is dumb? Trying to make every problem unfalsifiable. Infallibility lets any false prophet off the hook
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A doctor:
“I went to med school.”
A prophet:
“I speak for God.”
This not about whether fallible people who are trained in medicine can know more than me.
This is about why someone should still be treated as speaking for God after being wrong in God’s name.
Thoughtful-Faith@ThoughtfulSaint
I can accept that doctors are fallible. What I can’t accept is that I am still expected to think my doctor knows more than me about how to treat my cancer.
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Why isn’t Jesus wearing His garments in the temple?
James Divis@j_divis
This is the church of Jesus Christ! #Jesus
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@stackerco That’s not even a little bit at all what he said. But I suppose if I was trying to read my bitter presuppositions that way, I too could delude myself
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It was never about coffee.
It was never about your tithing money.
It was never about you struggling with sin.
It was never really about agency.
It was never about righteousness.
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It was about compliance reframed as obedience.
It was about control made to look holy.
It was about loyalty.
You were taught to feel guilty for being human.
It was about whether you could be governed
Eight-year-olds don’t choose baptism. They comply.
Many eighteen-year-olds don’t choose missions. They submit to expectation.
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@mrmdotorg Like a Christian being apathetic about God’s foreknowledge, simple, open or, middle, is that not tolerable either?
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This *is* a position on the regress of gods.
The Alchemical Engineer@drrjpeterson
@ThoughtfulSaint Why does it matter?
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@stackerco @Ptrickstar Yes, I’m agreeing with you, the claim is prophets have authority over scripture.
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@stackerco @Ptrickstar I think you’re on to something with this one. You don’t think Isaiah was referring to Jesus, and that gets to the dual nature of prophecy, it’s through the authority of Prophets, who are authorized to interpret scripture. Reject the Prophet, reject the BOM, reject Christ.
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The “Stick of Joseph” and “Stick of Judah” in Ezekiel 37 are not the Book of Mormon and the Bible. They’re not even talking about scrolls.
God tells Ezekiel to take two “sticks” and write on them Write on them “For Judah” and “For Joseph.” Then join them into one stick.
But the Hebrew word for sticks is “etz”which means piece of wood or a staff or an actual stick.
It represents the reunification of Judah, the southern kingdom and the northern kingdom of Israel/Ephraim/Joseph.
This is about bringing together a division that happened after Solomon and making kingdoms one nation again.
“I will make them one nation… and one king shall be king over them all.”
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@BradWitbeck how often is tithing mentioned in LDS talks? How important is “the law of tithing”? Emotional manipulation (guilt, shame) tactics are prevalent in getting the members to feel compelled to tithe or risk eternal consequences.
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The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has never "demanded" my money.
I willingly give a tithe of a 10th of my increase as a sacrifice to God.
And what's the "religious corporate greed" being used for? As a safety net and to feed the hungry? How is this bad?
Furkan Gözükara@FurkanGozukara
Absolute insanity. An expert filmmaker exposes how the Mormon Church is hoarding a staggering 350 billion dollars and buying up massive amounts of American land while still demanding money from its followers. The religious corporate greed is terrifying.
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