@GalenBalinski @LordIsComin @RealTStevenson @benshapiro As history has shown, that rhetoric has led to justification of actual physical violence against those of my faith.
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Alora Smith
139 posts
@GalenBalinski @LordIsComin @RealTStevenson @benshapiro Look, I'm not trying to change your mind about your religious beliefs or convert you to mine. I respect and celebrate your dedication to Jesus Christ - that relationship is the most important of our lives. I just take issue with people calling us demonic.
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@GalenBalinski @LordIsComin @RealTStevenson @benshapiro So, in this example:
Red Sox game = meeting where people worship Jesus Christ
Boston = members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
Red Sox = Jesus Christ
Got it. Cool.
....because that's who we worship. Jesus Christ.
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@GalenBalinski @LordIsComin @RealTStevenson @benshapiro Not even all creedal Christians agree with you on that. We (meaning both of our religions) are not "completely at odds," and it's divisive and damaging to believe and live that way. Also, you can't say the things you've said on this thread and claim to be "in good faith."
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@GalenBalinski @LordIsComin @RealTStevenson @benshapiro Nothing you've thrown out in this whole thread is new. Galatians 1:8 is not the slam dunk you think it is. You're welcome to disagree with us, but at least know what you're talking about before proactively attacking deeply held religious beliefs online.
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The analogy was pretty straightforward and didn’t need broken down. Visiting in person is just going to reaffirm what I already certainly know.
Mormons worship a counterfeit version of Jesus created my Satan through Joseph Smith. Galatians 1:8 is quite clear on that type of “worship.”
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That would be like going to a Red Sox game just to confirm Boston really roots for the Red Sox
Throughout life and years of pastoral ministry, I spoken to Mormons at tremendous length.
In other parts of this thread, I’ve made the clarification that I believe Mormons as individuals are very very nice and kind people. And in most cases that kindness is genuine. That does not change the heinous evil and heresy that comes from a demonic counterfeit of the Christ’s Church. My comment is not regarding Mormons as individuals but as a belief system, body of doctrine, and false religion. Hope that helps
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Ben Shapiro today on his podcast:
“There is no category of humans that are entirely good and honest…
…maybe the Mormons come close.”
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@JS_StrngstSldr Are these like, our stats?
Grew up in the church - born in '88
4 years of seminary
0 EFYs
All out 18 month mission
No degree from a church school
Read from the BOM nearly every day
Don't know when I first heard because I was probably really young.
My experience isn't unique.
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@PTSPentax @BenBird53920553 I grew up in the 90s, and I disagree. Again, maybe I just had extraordinary parents/teachers/leaders, but we should also acknowledge that people’s memories and narratives often shift over time alongside major identity/value changes.
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@alorasmith @BenBird53920553 It depends - it was a lot less common to be taught in church settings in the 90’s.
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I served a Mormon mission from 2002 - 2004. None of us missionaries knew that Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. I was never taught that as a Mormon kid. I don't think I found out until I was in my mid-twenties, and I didn't find out about it at church. I found out about it online.
Thoughtful-Faith@ThoughtfulSaint
“Why haven’t you ever heard of this?” Maybe cause you never looked at what is literally right on our website. Hahaha (Seriously this is taught in all Church history classes)
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@LukeFHan @RealMattFradd Such a great video! I learned a lot, too - thank you!
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Matt Fradd's Daily Wire article invited feedback from Mormons.
Well I have some. Lots. I have lots of feedback.
Are you open to correcting the record @RealMattFradd?
youtu.be/GhyaHMsrfCA?si…
YouTube
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@PTSPentax @BenBird53920553 I’m like, 99% sure it was taught in church and seminary while studying the D&C.
I don’t want to assign ill-intent, but I do have a hard time believing this. Maybe I had uniquely excellent parents and teachers, but I think there might be some memory issues here.
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I served from 2001-2003. How could you not know this? I get that it wasn’t as well understood. We didn’t have the wealth of sources available that we do today - but how could you have not at least known? Did you read any church history on your own? Did you ever dive deeper in the gospel than what you were taught in church and seminary?
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@Sarahrieyw Wait, @gwowls are these guys Mormon? Can you confirm?
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@FatherChrisVor1 I'm sorry others have been...less than charitable. I found your post to be very respectful, and I appreciate it. I agree with you - we can disagree on theology but still have great love for one another. Hopefully we (LDS) can be more Christlike in the future!
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To the Mormons who are offended by this post, understand something. This post is intended for Christians. Why? Because I don’t want them to lose their salvation because they mock you. I don’t give a darn about your underwear.
Fr. Chris Vorderbruggen@FatherChrisVor1
“Mormon magic underwear.” That’s the phrase people throw around. It gets laughs. It gets clicks. But it’s also a perfect example of how Mormonism is being treated right now, mocked instead of understood. So I’m starting a short series. Not to defend it. Not to attack it. But to deal with it honestly. Let’s talk about what that actually is. Among members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the proper name is the temple garment, or garment of the holy priesthood. It is a sacred item tied to covenants made in their temples. Historically, this garment was introduced by Joseph Smith in the 1840s, particularly in Nauvoo. Early versions were very different from what is worn today. They were one-piece garments, extending from wrists to ankles. Those early garments included specific markings sewn into the fabric. That continues today in a simplified form. You’ll typically find markings over the chest, near the navel, and at the knee. In LDS teaching, these point to obedience, sacrifice, and remembrance of covenants. Over time, the garment has changed. It moved from a single piece to two pieces. Materials and cuts have been updated. More recently, there has been internal discussion because newer designs allow different fits, especially for women, including cuts that work with modern clothing. Now here’s where we need to slow down. Christians have no ground to mock sacred clothing. We have our own. Think of the scapular worn by the faithful, resting against the skin as a sign of devotion. Think of the vestments a priest puts on before the liturgy, each piece received with prayer. These are not costumes. They are outward signs of inward realities. The same principle is at work here, even if we disagree with the theology behind it. So critique the theology. Be honest about the differences. But mocking what people hold sacred without understanding it is not strength. It’s just noise.
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@uspatriot121 @PurpleKoya21 Out of curiosity, does your ward actually really SING the hymns they know? I've noticed that after Covid, it seems like no one sings anymore, regardless. Breaks my heart.
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@PurpleKoya21 I've brought this up in bishopric meeting many times. No one sings, everyone is uncomfortable, it's awkward, and it detracts from the meeting. We actually had a nonmember couple get up and leave right after the hymn. Don't know if that was the reason but it didn't help.
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Hot Take: Sacrament meeting is not the time to teach the congregation new songs.
It’s painful, when saints stumble on the notes and words because nobody knows the song.
Singing in sacrament should be a time for worship and I miss singing songs that most people know and sing with fervor.
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@ByuSome I've had countless conversations about really awesome things I heard on Ward Radio. I often refer others to it. Whether or not they say things perfectly, their hearts are good and honestly, they've done a lot of good missionary work. I've learned a lot from them.
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All I ever hear about Ward Radio is the most cringe and wild stuff from the likes of Kwaku, Julie Hanks and others. I don't recall ever seeing "Someone brought up this amazing point on Ward Radio and it really helped me."
Why do people tune in? Am I ignorant (might be the case)? I legit only ever hear bad things about it.
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@coachandrewmay @Ch_JesusChrist Congratulations to your son! My nephew is serving there right now and loving it!
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Personal: My son has been chosen to serve a mission for the @Ch_JesusChrist in the📍Indonesia, Jakarta Mission. 🤯The thought of sending him to the other side of the 🌎 for 2 years is daunting, but it will change his life! Learning to lose yourself to help others is invaluable!
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@Lauraba24614428 @RykerJackson97 Even if members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints are not the target audience, if that's the topic of conversation and there are willing volunteers from our faith to discuss, it seems like the intellectually honest thing to include them.
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@RykerJackson97 I think the point is to clarify for other Christian’s or non-Mormons. Just because Mormons are being discussed does not mean Mormons are the target audience. Doctrine talks with Mormons might be approached differently.
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Are you going to actually talk to any Latter-day Saints or is this going to be the same goofy Gish Gallop list of tired anti-Mormon tropes that go viral on this site every two weeks?
Look, Jon, I don’t doubt your sincerity, and I think you’re a good guy, but if you think another round of:
- Galatians 1:8-9
- Jesus is created
- brother of Satan
- polygamy
- Kolob
- Book of Abraham
- Book of Mormon anachronisms
- polygamy
- spiritual eyes
- priesthood restriction
- Joseph Smith Translation
- weight of the plates
- Kirtland Safety Society
- Freemasonry
- kinderhook plates
- white Muslims
- rocks in a hat
- divining rods
- and all the rest, you get the idea…
is going to change the mind of any faithful Latter-day Saint, let me just tell you right now that we’ve heard it all before and I expect to hear it all thousands and thousands of times more before I’ve finally shrugged off this mortal coil.
All of these supposed major problems for us have very satisfactory and rational answers, and the consistency with which anti-Mormons keep using them says much less about the effectiveness of such arguments and much more about the ignorance and, far too often, arrogance of our detractors.
As to whether we are Christian or not, I’m not too concerned about how I’m identified.
Do I consider myself Christian? Yes.
Am I going to lose sleep if large portions of the larger Christian world deny that classification? No.
Jon Root@JonnyRoot_
We obviously need to have a honest, fruitful, Biblical conversation about the foundational differences between Mormonism & Christianity. Let’s discuss more tomorrow…
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@ChristLifeInc1 @Lovemyproxy If this is your response to what has been presented, can you clarify what you meant by your original statement, "There have never been any changes to the bible"? If different translations provide different information, I don't see how that tracks.
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@Lovemyproxy WRONG!
It is NOT in every translation of the Bible.
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@grok was the story of the woman caught in adultery in the earliest manuscripts of the gospel of John?
ChristLife, Inc.@ChristLifeInc1
@Shemcray2 @ThoughtfulSaint There have never been changes to the Bible. With about 5,800 ancient manuscripts of the New Testament alone, we have so many documents to review, that if an error was made on one, it is easily detected when measured against the multitude of others.
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@LDS_Liberty @Ch_JesusChrist I heard a rumor a couple years ago that a pilot program was being tested that was basically a homeschool co-op type thing. Church buildings were used for classes, the core curriculum was written by the church, and parents/members taught. Haven't heard anything since then, though.
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I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say you don't see it because you're not experiencing it. Here are a few examples of persecution we endure:
-Being called "demonic" or "a cult" constantly
-Protests outside our biannual conferences
-Protests outside our temples and meetinghouses on a daily/weekly basis
-Oh, and as others have pointed out, our members being shot and our church literally being burned to the ground. You're just dismissing that as an "evil act," but it is LITERAL persecution in the most cruel, destructive fashion.
Along with condemning that "evil act," you could also show a little compassion, too. Isn't that what Christ would do?
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@VVenerabilis @Danielchp10vs12 I’ve followed you for a while actually. Feel free to block me if you’re bothered by that, but yeah no I don’t apologize for speaking the truth; Mormons frequently refer to Christians making fun of their beliefs as persecution that validates their faith.
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Alright Mormons, pack it up, the Book of Mormon clearly teaches the Trinity. Time to come home.
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Really, you just have to approach it from a point of actually wanting to understand what we believe instead of an “I already know what you believe, now try to justify yourselves.” I don’t know you personally, so I can’t say for certain where your heart is. I’m just going off what our usual interactions are.
And we’re not the only ones who understand our theology, but even if we were, that still wouldn’t make us a cult. It really is rhetoric like calling us a cult, telling us we’re demonic, etc. that soon gets to “Mormons are the anti-Christ” like the shooter believed.
I personally don’t care anymore if you remain committed to the idea that I’m not a Christian - I know where I stand with God - but I want the accusations of “cult,” “demons,” and “anti-Christ” to stop because it literally led to my people being killed and our church being burned to the ground.
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Remember this when dealing with Mormons and other cults.
"The average non-Christian cult owes its very existence to the fact that it has utilized the terminology of Christianity, has borrowed liberally from the Bible (almost always out of context), and sprinkled its format with evangelical clichés and terms wherever possible or advantageous. Up to now this has been a highly successful attempt to represent their respective systems of thought as “Christian.” On encountering a cultist, then, always remember that you are dealing with a person who is familiar with Christian terminology, and who has carefully redefined it to fit the system of thought he or she now embraces."
—Walter Martin, The Kingdom of the Cults
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