Travis

Why is faith in Jesus Christ so important? Why does God not simply reveal all things to everyone, making faith unnecessary? Does God intentionally obscure information to pressure a choice between faith and unbelief? If so, why? Let's start with Alma 41 for answers to these questions. At the last day we will all be raised, or resurrected, to a state consistent with the desires of our heart while in this life. If "the desires of their hearts were good, that they should also, at the last day, be restored unto that which is good...and if their works are evil they shall be restored unto them for evil...The one raised to happiness according to his desires of happiness, or good according to his desires of good; and the other to evil according to his desires of evil" (v. 3-5) God already knows our hearts. He knows our inmost desires. We, however, do not know our own hearts. But because of our experiences in mortality, the true desires of our hearts will be revealed by the choices we make and we will come to know who we truly are at the core of our beings. Abinadi speaks to this in Mosiah 16:1 "The time shall come when all shall see the salvation of the Lord; when every nation, kindred, tongue, and people shall see eye to eye and shall confess before God that his judgments are just." So what does this have to do with faith? Lehi speaks directly to this question in 2 Nephi 2:16, 27 "Wherefore, the Lord God gave unto man that he should act for himself. Wherefore, man could not act for himself save it should be that he was enticed by the one or the other...wherefore, men are free according to the flesh; and all things are given them which are expedient unto man. And they are free to choose liberty and eternal life, through the great Mediator of all men, or to choose captivity and death, according to the captivity and power of the devil." By not revealing all things to us fully, which would eliminate the need for faith, God provides a context for us to be "enticed by the one or the other" so we can, in truth, choose for ourselves. So we can answer the questions above clearly: Yes, God does withhold knowledge, pressuring us to make a choice between choosing righteousness or wickedness based on desire. Because we must make that choice, over and over again throughout life, without all the knowledge of God, our choices become a reflection of our true desires for good or evil, rather than a selfish race for the prize or fear of punishment. Those who genuinely "hunger and thirst after righteousness" will be led by the promptings of the Holy Ghost, which requires faith, to follow Christ. The good news is, we get to choose! We are not coerced by God. We have every reason for optimism and hope! If we examine our hearts and consistently push ourselves to choose good and seek God, He will send the Holy Ghost to enlighten our minds, direct our path, and help us grow into truly Christlike beings! Without the need for faith, this simple and beautiful process would not be able to play out. As I reflect, I feel to exclaim with Lehi "behold, all things have been done in the wisdom of him who knoweth all things." (2 Ne 2:24)

@DeseretStone Amen

In my extended group of friends is an LDS couple where the wife earns substantially more than her husband. Their story is a bit unique. They married less than a year after he returned home from his mission. Both very bright, both studying at BYU, both very active to this day. Towards the end of their undergraduate education, he became very ill. While his cohort was interviewing for their first jobs, he ended up fighting cancer. He beat it, but it took years. The timing meant he missed the key college years recruiting window. And the fight left him with certain limitations and ongoing issues. Understandably, his career struggled at first, never reaching the heights his potential allowed, but has been respectable by any measure. (And downright remarkable under the circumstances.) In the interim, with a baby at home, a sick husband with an uncertain future, and a need to support them all (and get medical insurance), the wife dove into her career head first, found excellent work, and has enjoyed a successful career. They have (>2) great kids. They have had the good fortune of being able to lean on their families for assistance with childcare. And the husband has worked in part-time / reduced hours, in remote roles wherever possible. All the same, it’s hard to argue that the wife’s career hasn’t been impacted by her pregnancies. She has favored work which allowed maternity leave and a 9-5 schedule, which limits her. They’ve mentioned many times that they wish they had more, but that it was difficult with mom as the primary breadwinner. He’s a good man, but you can see his confidence has taken a hit. He wants to provide. He wants to play that role. She’s a good woman, but you can see that she often wishes their roles could be reversed, and that she could spend more time with the children and lean on him a bit more. Neither views their situation as ideal, for them or their kids. Both understand that these are the cards life has dealt them, and they are both committed to the game. This is good and they have made it work. I don’t really have a bigger point to make with this story other than to say that life is a long series of trade-offs and compromises, often in response to the unexpected. Some compromises are much bigger than others. But they are all very, very real. And the full price is rarely visible when the decision to compromise is made. Choosing that difficult career path *will inevitably* take time away from other worthy pursuits, most especially family. Perhaps it can be worth it. But after many years in a difficult profession myself, I have come to believe that this is less often the case than many think. (I have seen too many big promotions accompanied by big divorces.) Life already has enough uncertainty and compromise and distraction baked in without the chase for money and prestige. Perhaps we would do better with that message than generalized statements about maximizing education and career. Hard to say. It’s all a compromise. Just don’t compromise too much on what matters most. (Have changed / obscured a few details for privacy)

@mfreivald @PopePiusXIIStan If you mean the trinitarian god as defined in the post-biblical creeds, no. We do believe in God the Eternal Father, and in His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. You still haven’t answered any of the questions I’ve raised to you.

@ferrell_travis @PopePiusXIIStan Do you claim your gods are the same as God in Christianity or not? That is the crux of the issue. And the answer is obvious to anyone who doesn't follow your double-speak.

Look, I get you don’t like Mormon theology…but Mormons are obsessed with Jesus. And yes it’s the same Jesus. Don’t @ me.

@cfdavey @Manhattva @HustleBitch_ This is something that would be appropriate to (discreetly) escalate through proper channels. Church leaders that do this are out of line and need to be corrected by appropriate ecclesiastical authority.

Yep. 100%. I was dumbfounded and pretty upset when they actually declined his recommend because they didn’t feel like he paid enough tithing. You and I know each other, so you know that I’m not blowing smoke. I had a mini episode with the bishop about it, and they ended up giving him his recommend. But when he got it renewed just recently, it was the same rhetoric. I’m sure you and I are on the same page with the whole thing and how we believe it should be. This is personal between myself and the Lord. The bishop has no way of confirming anything, and I don’t want them in my W-2 or taxes etc. It’s a slippery slope for sure and truly should be a personal thing between the Lord and the person, IMHO. For the record, I have never been asked anything ever in my entire life other than the question that is straight off of the questions that they ask. Yes, or no has always been the case for me.

🚨 WOMAN LEAVES CHURCH AFTER THEY ASKED FOR HER W2 TO VERIFY TITHING — AND PEOPLE SAY THIS CROSSES A LINE She says it started like any normal first visit. They welcomed her, gave her a small gift, made it feel warm and inviting. Then they told first-time visitors to meet in the back if they wanted to join. That’s when everything changed. She claims they asked for her W2 to verify she was giving the full 10%. Not a suggestion. Not an honor system. Verification. She says growing up, churches talked about tithing, but no one was checking your income or tracking what you gave. Now she’s hearing stories of pastors following up with people directly…asking why they haven’t been giving. And at the same time? Mega church leaders living in multi-million dollar homes, driving luxury cars, flying private. Her reaction: “I think you’re good… I don’t think you need my W2.” People in the comments are saying this isn’t uncommon. Is this faith, or is this something else entirely?

It is circular because you assume the Trinitarian/creedal definition of "God" is the only valid one, then use that assumption to declare LDS theology wrong. Also called "begging the question". Your original claim was that our theology teaches Jesus is "not God" and "one in a pantheon of limited gods." I answered with 3 Nephi 9:15 and D&C 76:22–24, where Jesus is explicitly the Creator and Only Begotten, one with the Father. Instead of addressing those verses, you shifted the goalposts.

Where exactly is it circular? I am dealing with definitions, and your definition of "God" does not fit the Christian definition or that of Judaism. The definition is clearly wrong in this context, and you know that's what I'm saying. How exactly am I wrong that your gods differ from God as we know Him through Christianity? Your verses mean nothing because you do not use the same vocabulary as we do--address the meaning if you care about the truth at all.

The only meaning being clouded here is yours. Latter-day Saint theology is actually very clear and coherent once you stop trying to apply non-biblical creedal doctrines as a litmus test. You still haven't responded to the actual scriptural passages I shared with you in response to your earlier post. 3 Nephi 9:15 and D&C 76:22–24 explicitly call Jesus the Creator, the Only Begotten, and one with the Father. Quoting them isn’t “clouding meaning” it’s showing what our canon actually teaches. Do you have a substantive reply to those passages, or are you conceding they exist and contradict your original claim?

Mormons/LDS seem to live and breathe the intentional clouding of meaning. Out of one side of their mouth, they explicitly reject God as known through Christianity, as well as God understood by Judaism, and they insist their gods are distinct beings--which by definition cannot be infinite. Out of the other side of their mouth, they insist that their limited gods are God. They know there is a difference, but they deliberately reject anything we say to point it out. They are an incoherent religion, and I think they know it.

You are now shifting the goalposts with a circular argument. It is no longer what Latter-day Saint theology actually is, it is that it differs from your theology and is therefore wrong. You still haven’t addressed the verses I quoted that directly contradict your claims about LDS theology. Do you have a response to 3 Nephi 9:15 and D&C 76:22–24, or are you conceding that those passages exist in our canon?

So... are your gods distinct (therefore limited) beings, or not? If so, they are not God. Your pagan book can claim they are all "God," but your definition is false and not at all God as we know through Christianity. It's always entertaining when Mormons/LDS completely reject the Trinity and consubstantiation, then try to claim their gods are God. They only do so by adulterating the meaning of "God." You can't have it both ways, pal.

Mormons are like transgenders: they constantly demand you affirm their false self-identification.

You are right. It is trivial to demonstrate that you are straw manning: "Jesus is not God" -> Correction: “Behold, I am Jesus Christ the Son of God. I created the heavens and the earth, and all things that in them are. I was with the Father from the beginning. I am in the Father, and the Father in me; and in me hath the Father glorified his name.” 3 Nephi 9:15 "one in a pantheon of limited gods" -> Correction: “And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives! For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.” D&C 76:22-24 I could list many more such passages. The point is, not one reference in all of Latter-day Saint canon supports your caricature. On the other hand, hundreds of passages are in complete harmony with the two examples I've shared here. Furthermore, the Old and New Testaments are part of Latter-day Saint canon.

@ferrell_travis @PopePiusXIIStan If I'm straw manning, it will be trivial for you to demonstrate how I am straw manning--so be my guest. How am I straw manning? (Even though I wasn't asking you, I was asking my fellow Catholic.)

@mfreivald @PopePiusXIIStan How are you wrong? By straw manning.

How do you figure? In their theology, Jesus is not God, he is one in a pantheon of limited gods. If I were to name a blowfish "Jesus," and claim it was Jesus of the Bible, everyone would know I was nuts and/or stupid. The Mormon gods are infinitely closer to the blowfish than they are to God. Their gods and God as known through Christianity are not even the same species of beings. How am I wrong?

You’re afraid the Bible will expose the Book of Mormon, that’s why you won’t read it.

This corporate greed helped put food on my table for a year. This corporate greed paid my rent for months. This corporate greed paid my utility bills when we couldn’t. This corporate greed saved my family from complete financial ruin when my husband got sick.

What is the first thing you think of when you hear “Wisconsin”? I’m curious.

@garyStu03519444 @JasontheLayman

@ferrell_travis @JasontheLayman Tearing down false systems is a necessary part of the process.

Many LDS apologists attempt to use Scripture to attack a Christian's theological positions, but no surprise, the devil also tempted Jesus with Scripture. They are following their leader's crooked paths by lying and twisting the word of God.

@DiscipleFidei You are not a serious person

Christian: Lord, through your sacrifice, let us draw near to God. Mormon: Lord, by my own actions in your temple, let me sit on your throne with you!

@ThoughtfulSaint The definition of cope

You guys…. He knows about the “email list” 🤣 Yikes…

LDS members have seemed increasingly bitter lately, especially after their honorary prophet, Jacob Hansen, struggled to keep up with Dr. James White in the debate. I do enjoy seeing God win.

@sola_chad You are not a serious person

Mormons do not respect Jesus Christ nor do they respect Scripture. They preach a different gospel and follow a false prophet. Mormons are not Christians.

@Protestia He’s right

Jenkins has previously insisted that Mormons and Christians love the same Jesus, and that he was willing to die on that hill. protestia.com/2024/03/03/in-…

'The Chosen' creator Dallas Jenkins, talking to two Mormon teachers, explains that Mormons have such a reverence and genuine respect for Christ- more than most evangelicals do-and they honor scripture and exhibit fidelity to scripture.

@Protestia @LDSMetalGirl